EP.152/ LAURIER MANDIN
Emotional Branding and Reducing Buyer's Remorse with Laurier Mandin, author of ‘I Need That’ and Graphos President
Mariah Parsons hosts Laurier Mandin, President of Graphos and author of "I Need That," on her podcast Retention Chronicles. Laurier discusses his 30-year experience in helping innovators launch physical products, emphasizing the importance of understanding customer needs and emotional connections. He explains the brain model, highlighting the limbic system's role in emotional decisions and the neocortex's analytical bias. Laurier shares strategies for reducing buyer's remorse, such as immediate validation, delightful onboarding, early wins, and building community. He also stresses the importance of targeting the right audience to ensure product-market fit and long-term loyalty.
EP. 152
LAURIER MANDIN
Episode Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction and Guest Background
Mariah Parsons introduces the podcast, "Retention Chronicles," and welcomes listeners.
Mariah introduces Laurier Mandin, President and Principal Consultant at Graphos Product, and author of "I Need That."
Laurier shares his background, mentioning his 30 years of experience in helping innovators launch physical products.
Laurier explains the purpose of his book, "I Need That," which aims to help creators understand their potential buyers and connect with them effectively.
5:38 Laurier's Journey and Graphos Product
Laurier discusses his journey from journalism school to starting a satire magazine and eventually founding Graphos Product.
He explains how his agency evolved to focus on helping product businesses with strategic expertise, branding, and marketing.
Laurier emphasizes the importance of positioning and strategy in product development and marketing.
He highlights the role of his creative director and the collaborative efforts within Graphos Product.
7:56 The Importance of Early Strategy and Positioning
Laurier explains the ideal time for clients to approach Graphos Product, which is when they are close to launching their product.
He prefers clients to come when they have done most of their product development but still need strategic guidance.
Laurier offers free consultations for early-stage product development to help clients validate their ideas and set a timeline.
He stresses the importance of not waiting until the last minute to seek strategic advice.
13:46 Emotional Connection and Customer Retention
Mariah and Laurier discuss the importance of emotional connection in customer retention.
Laurier explains the triune brain model: the lizard brain (survival), the limbic system (emotional), and the neocortex (logical).
He emphasizes the need to appeal to the limbic system to create lasting loyalty.
Laurier provides examples of brands like Peloton and Lush that successfully tap into emotional desires to build customer loyalty.
18:20 Practical Strategies for Reducing Buyer's Remorse
Laurier outlines four strategies to reduce buyer's remorse: immediate validation, delightful onboarding, early wins, and building community.
He explains how to reinforce the emotional response in the order confirmation email.
Laurier discusses the importance of making the unboxing experience pleasant and providing simple, successful user experiences.
He highlights the role of community in validating the purchase decision and building long-term loyalty.
18:36 Targeting the Right Audience and Building Loyalty
Laurier emphasizes the importance of targeting the right audience to ensure product-market fit.
He explains how good positioning helps attract the right buyers and validates their decision to purchase.
Laurier discusses the impact of selling to the wrong audience and the importance of nailing down the target market.
He provides practical advice on building community and leveraging social proof to enhance customer loyalty.
18:55 Examples of Successful Brand Strategies
Laurier shares examples of successful brands like Yeti, Lululemon, and Traeger that create emotional connections with their customers.
He explains how these brands tap into the aspirational desires of their ideal buyers.
Laurier discusses the role of brand ambassadors and community in building a loyal customer base.
He highlights the importance of creating a premium brand experience that aligns with the customer's desired future state.
45:01 The Role of Emotional Connection in Marketing
Mariah and Laurier discuss the role of emotional connection in marketing and customer retention.
Laurier explains how emotional appeals can hook potential buyers and lead them to invest more time and energy in the purchase process.
He emphasizes the importance of understanding the customer's emotional needs and aspirations.
Laurier provides additional examples of brands that successfully leverage emotional connection in their marketing strategies.
45:14 Practical Tips for Enhancing Customer Experience
Laurier offers practical tips for enhancing the customer experience and reducing buyer's remorse.
He discusses the importance of providing clear, concise instructions and support to new customers.
Laurier emphasizes the need for a seamless onboarding process that reinforces the emotional benefits of the product.
He highlights the role of community and social proof in validating the purchase decision and building long-term loyalty.
45:26 Conclusion and Call to Action
Mariah thanks Laurier for sharing his insights and practical strategies for customer retention.
Laurier encourages listeners to sign up for his free daily email newsletter for more tips and resources.
Mariah provides information on how to connect with Laurier and Graphos Product.
The episode concludes with Mariah thanking listeners and encouraging them to engage with the podcast and its community.
TRANSCRIPT
This transcript was completed by an automated system, please forgive any grammatical errors.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
customer retention, customer retention marketing, product development, emotional connection, buyer's remorse, post purchase customer experience, brand loyalty, product positioning, consumer behavior, Shopify email marketing strategy, product validation, customer success, community building, product launch, customer engagement
SPEAKERS
Mariah Parsons, Laurier Mandin
Mariah Parsons 00:00
Music. Welcome to retention Chronicles, the retention podcast for E commerce marketers. I'm your host and fellow e commerce marketer, Mariah Parsons, tune in as I chat with E comm founders and operators all about customer retention. Think marketing ops, customer success and customer experience, we cover it all and more. So get ready to get real with retention. Here is our newest episode. Hello everyone, and welcome back to retention Chronicles. I'm Sykes for today's episode. It is the first one that we are recording after the Thanksgiving season. So for me, that has been a really, really great time with family, and we're excited to launch into it today. Today I have with me Laurier manden. He's the President and Principal Consultant at graphos product, as well as the author of I need that, creating and marketing products people are compelled to buy. So our listeners already know this is going to be a great episode for them, just based off of your introduction, but we're going to go into your background a little bit deeper, and have you say hello to our audience. Laurier so hello and thank you for joining me today.
Laurier Mandin 01:08
Hi, Mariah, and thank you. I've been looking forward to this. You do a great podcast, and I think your audience is a really great fit, as we were discussing before we started recording with what I talk about in the book and with the kind of work that I've spent the last 30 years doing. So really looking forward to getting into some of the some of the details. And would you like me to start off by giving a little bit more about my background and kind of what brought me here? Yeah,
Mariah Parsons 01:36
that'd be great. Let's dive in. I know 30 years, you know, we're not going to have. We're not going to be shy, we're going to dive into all of it. So let's go and kick it off. Yeah,
Laurier Mandin 01:44
yeah. And as you said, for that last three decades at graphos product, we specialized in helping innovators launch physical products mostly, and a lot of our clients are direct to consumer brands, like many of your listeners and even some of those people that maybe clicked on a link by mistake, as you say, and and for about five years ago, I started writing the book. I need that, and I talk about that a little bit in the intro to the book, that the main reason that I wrote this book was because I felt that way too many people create products with kind of putting themselves on this direct trajectory to failure, without really understanding not just what their potential buyer really does need from them, what they need from a product, but how to connect with those people's minds to get the ideal buyers that are there to understand why the product is such a great fit for them and the good it can do in their lives. So it could be the problem, could be that they have created something that's not quite the right product, or that they're not communicating the benefits, the real reason to buy, to the right people, and sometimes it's a combination of both. So my goal with the book was to get people starting off in that right place to explore, it, to understand what it is they should be building, to validate that their idea is the right thing to build, and then get that messaging just right, so that the people who should be buying it that are going to benefit the most from it, know it, and you have that connection with them. And from there, they use it correctly. They become a big fan of the product and the brand, and they continue buying things from you, so you have that retention part.
Mariah Parsons 03:23
Yeah, yeah. I can't wait to dive in and kind of explain, you know, the different strategies and the different elements that you go into in the book. And I think as you alluded to, or as you highlighted with the the crossover between this podcast and what our listeners are trying to achieve and to go about something in a way that is road mapped, but still has the ability to be flexible with someone's needs. Like, I love the format of the book that you have, obviously the chapter. Each chapter is split up into give different context, and, you know, research, we'll even dive into a little bit of the psychology behind consumer behavior, and then you give, you know, summary, chapter summary, and then quick wins, which I really appreciate, and I know our listeners will appreciate, just because it is easy to say, you know, okay, this is a strategy, right? Like, this is what you should be doing. But then what are the steps that actually get you to think about, like, Okay, this, this is how you create a loyal customer, or this is how you create a great product that is maybe you, you know, the the product that solves the problem, it solves for you is a if you tweak it just a little bit, that resonates so much better with the mass market, right? So I really appreciate the format in which you laid out the book, because I think it is, there's a lot of a lot of books out there, and just a lot of strategy and a lot of community, and a lot of email, you know, newsletters and whatnot, for people who are trying to get started in the space, which is great because, you know, there's so many different things that you can pull from. Different people and their experience. But I think sometimes it's hard to apply that to your own business. When you're trying to start out of like, you just see the, I'm using air quotes. You see their like peak, right? Their first peak in a business of like, how did they get to 1 million Arr, or something like that, right? But you're not seeing all the little decisions they make up until that point. So it's going to be a fascinating, fascinating podcast episode, and I thank you again for being here with me. I want to ask with just diving into your background just a little bit, what kind of inspired you to get into this field. I think it's fun to always have that context before we launch into the more you know, technical side of the podcast, that's
Laurier Mandin 05:42
a really good question, too. And I went to journalism school back in the early 1990s because that's how old I am, and I at in college, I had a great time. I learned a ton. I came into being a responsible adult, but the biggest takeaway that I got was that I did not want to be a reporter. So when I graduated, I started a satire magazine with a couple of former classmates, and together, we wrote the articles, we took the photos and designed the ads, and I realized that I really loved how those pieces came together, especially the ad design, and working with people who had products and services to sell, and translating that, what that offer was into the messaging and coming up with visuals. And so magazines are really hard, and like most, the magazine didn't make it. We did it for about a year, but in 1993 in the depth of a recession, I decided to start my agency, which I called graphos, and I leased a coroner office on the most prestigious Street in my city, with not a single client lined up. And learned on the job how to run a business and how to run an agency, and I made ads and designed high end brochures for all kinds of clients, and started creating websites as those started to be a thing, and it wasn't too long before, through working with all different kinds of models, that product businesses became my favorite. So right since those early days, I liked working with helping people launch products, and realized these companies needed not just ads and packaging, but strategic expertise to reach their customers for leads and sales. And so we built strategy way back then, even into a core part of our business model. And now we work with consumer and B to B product makers, helping them brand, market and scale their products. And most importantly though, we help them position and strategize so they get the messaging right. And we've always had some really great designers, and my creative director has been with graphos for 17 years now, and he's one of the best I've ever worked with. But that isn't very helpful to have great design and creative and great photography if the strategy isn't done really, really well. So that's that's how I got to the point I am with the company and writing I need that was just kind of the culmination of it, as I said, recognizing that people, before they come to me, before they come to graph, was with a product. If they start off in the right position and they set themselves up with the right product, it puts us in so much better of a position than when they come to us and they say that we've got this thing we built, and we start to discover it. It could have been so much better had only they asked the right questions earlier on. Had they done that validation in talking to their buyer, hearing the voice of their customer before building the darn thing? Right? Yeah,
Mariah Parsons 08:38
yeah, yeah. It's easy to get tunnel vision. You know, when you're in that chair and you're and you have to kind of have that blind optimism, right? As a founder of like, Yes, I believe in this product. So it's a tricky line, obviously, to validate and hear the outside market and criticism means that even and then know how to pick that apart and apply it to your strategy without losing that you know that core belief of you, if you're going to dedicate all your time and resources to starting this business, you have to make sure that you have that fundamental belief that you will you know that you have a product that's valuable to the market. So thank you for going into that background. And for anyone who maybe is in the audience thinking about, okay, I could really use some help with different products, or an idea that I want to flush out. What would you say is, like, the ideal customer for you all to work with, and then we'll dive into the strategy, just in case our audience is like, this is me. I need that now, if somebody's
Laurier Mandin 09:37
at that point now, yeah, the ideal point for a client to come to graph was product is when they they're getting ready, they've got the product. I mean, they've they've done the the product development work, and they're very close to being ready to go to market. There may be their runway is looking at six to nine months before they actually take the product to market. Um. And they they need a road map to do so they need to get their positioning right and fine tune their their strategy. And you know that is, if the product is simple to kind of medium complexity, then they don't need a huge amount of time, and we don't need a lot of time to to get things going and get the strategy ready. And actually, I prefer that we're a little more compressed than if we do the work way early on, and they go on and continue product development and come back, and we end up kind of losing that momentum and having to do a bit of a start over and relearn what they're doing. So there's kind of that balance of you don't want to be too rushed when you're taking the product to market and meeting with your strategist and starting to get up starting to get that part going. So a little touch base earlier on is never a bad idea. If you're even in early phase of product, stages of product development, and you have questions, I don't charge people for coming to me and asking me, What do you think of this idea? Do you think I need to tweak some things? What do you think would be a good timeline for taking the product to market, because everyone is different. There's always, I would never tell somebody, six to nine months, and that's it. Sometimes it might be good if we talk when you're just beginning the product development journey, especially if you don't have experience doing that kind of thing and happy to answer people's questions at that point, and then touch base along the way as things are moving along. And if we know that you're you're coming up like that, and we have that, that early part of the relationship established, it kind of gets us excited too, and kind of be, you know, there's, I would never say, Don't come and talk to us really early. But also, don't wait until you're three months to launch and and you've done all the work and all the mistakes that are made are very hard to reverse at that point. Yep.
Mariah Parsons 11:44
Okay, perfect. Makes sense. Thank you. And then if people want to get in contact with you, what's the best way we're getting this up at the front of the episode, yeah,
Laurier Mandin 11:53
for sure. Come go to graphosproduct.com and you can check out some of the things we've done and learn about our strategy and find out we have a an about you page, so that is for prospective clients to check out what kind of clients we like to work with, and read that and see if that sounds like the place that you're in right now and or the place that you want to be at soon. And then just fill out the contact form. We have a pre intake application. We call it. It's just, it just takes a minute longer than a regular contact form, but it really tells us a lot more about who you are, and it can really save you some time. And if we're not exactly a fit, I'll tell you so right up front. And if we need to do a little bit more work before, if it, I'll tell you that as well. So it's, it's a little bit of a quick get to get to know you before we start doing stuff. Okay, wonderful,
Mariah Parsons 12:42
great, thank you. Okay, so now, transitioning into the over, you know, overarching strategy, we're going to talk about some of the topics that I know our audience is going to be really intrigued to learn about. And one of the core themes that I want to stress during this episode is how you talk about obviously, first acquisition is super important for a new new product, new brand, getting people to that front door to, you know, make a make a purchase. And then I want to talk about, how do you get them to come back, right? Retention, key, key, key aspect of this podcast. So can you tell us a little bit more about when you're thinking about how you're a brand has their first time buyer, someone's bought with them one time. We'll we'll call it. How can someone sitting in the seat of a founder or, you know, higher level operative, think about approaching, appealing to their customers to get them to purchase again. And I want to look at this through, um, kind of that neurobiological, psychological lens, just because that's such a core motif that is throughout your book of not only is this, you know, I'll say best quotes in marketing of what you could do, but it's also backed by science and like, how humans interact, and I think that's always something that people are always wanting to hear about. So tell us, how would you say, like, how can, how can a brand take a first time buyer or a one time buyer and really use emotional connection to make sure that they come back and purchase and interact with the brand again, sure.
Laurier Mandin 14:25
And I mean, I think about this, not just from that one time buyer introduction point of view, but also with this being the retention Chronicles about retention, because so getting customers the right fit customers to buy with that goal, with the idea that they're going to become your customer long term. So when we talk about customer retention, there's something really fascinating that happens in your brain that most companies completely miss. There's, as you'll see in the book, I've got an illustration, and I talk about the triune brain model. So there's the brain can be broken out to three main components, the. The first one, the oldest one, is what's called the lizard brain. Is the middle central brain, and that part is it doesn't really have anything to do with buying decisions. It's mostly just keeping you alive, keeping you breathing, keeping your heart beating, keeping you from suffocating in your pillow at night. So lizard brain isn't really affected too much in buying decisions, but the other two parts really are so on top of that really, really old lizard brain part, there's the limbic system, what I call the dog brain, and that's the emotional, deeply instinctive part of your brain that makes lightning fast decisions based on feelings and impulses. If you think about how a dog responds to things, intensely, crazy, emotionally in the moment, Impulsive, that's your limbic system at work. And then on top of that, the big pink walnut thing that you think about when you think about your brain, that's the neocortex, and I call that the tank brain. It's incredibly powerful. It's painfully slow, though it's 250 times slower than the limbic system and in the buying process, it's mainly looking for reasons to say no to purchases. So it's it's scrutinizing. It's thinking of previous mistakes been made. It's thinking about credit card bills. It's looking for reasons not to make that purchase. It's where our loss aversion bias and our status quo bias live is in our neocortex. And most companies focus their purchase and retention efforts on the neocortex, the tank brain, with feature lists and benefits and logical reasons to buy, and hopefully buy that same logic buy again, but lasting loyalty also happens in the dog brain. It's about that emotional connection to what I call the coveted condition, and we'll talk about that more later, if you like. But it's that long term future state that the customer dreams about and daydreams about and fantasizes and locks them into this idea of who they can be with the product, not just the you know, those features and benefits and bullet points that we tend to market on too often in the product world, if you look at a brand like like peloton, they could focus on workout metrics and equipment specs and the silence of their bike and all those other things, but instead, they tap into the possibility of belonging and achievement and transformation and who you can become, because their ideal buyer wants to is not somebody who is going to fall off a routine, is somebody who's going to subscribe and first of all, buy the bike plus, and then they're going to buy the tread, and then they're going to buy their rowing machine, and they're going to keep on growing and becoming a better and better Customer and becoming more valuable as they talk to their like minded friends and spread the word and build that community of high achievers that are the ideal customer of the peloton brand so they share their achievements and celebrate milestones and get attached to the instructor personalities, and all the while becoming that fitter person that they've always fantasized about being, and they're achieving their coveted condition. And that's why peloton owners become such passionate advocates, because the product then transcends fitness and becomes about the identity. So when you deliver on emotional promises like that, the vision of who your customer dreams of being, who they dream of becoming you're building this tribe, this group of enthusiasts who can't help but stick around and share their story and buy your other product. So the what we're doing when we appeal to these different parts of the brain, these especially the dog brain and the analytical tank brain, is attracting at the right time, giving the right kind of emotional messaging that's going to trigger that buying response in those right fit people, by showing the coveted condition where you know your right fit people are aiming to get to be by using your products and making a clear path for them to get there. And then we can talk more as we go on too about creating those ideally successful experiences. So because if, if somebody buys something and it doesn't work for them, they use it wrong and it breaks, or using things things wrong in general, they don't feel supported with it, then they're not going to be an ongoing purchaser. They're not going to become a loyal advocate of your brand. They're going to fall back. They're going to return. If you're selling software, they're going to turn so it's all of those things really do tie together. Yeah,
Mariah Parsons 19:27
I love that so and there's, there's so much. This is bringing me back to my, my days of studying neuroscience, which I know some of our listeners and yourself know my background. When I was reading, I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm I, yeah, this is so fun for me, and I love that the difference between trying to appeal to logic or your tank brain, that's the fallacy almost. I don't know if fallacy is the right word, but I'm going to use it anyways of what maybe a brand thinks is the best way to market themselves with, like, Well, why wouldn't you purchase because. Of x, y, z, reason, but tying in the limbic system and seeing, okay, no, this is the emotional connection. Is what's going to be, quote, unquote, that extra factor for someone to come back and shop with you again, because logic can get you to okay if you need something because it's going you absolutely need it like it's an essential, you know thing that essential problem that you've deemed already is high enough status that you need to buy something to solve for it, then yes, logic will maybe help in terms of comparing competitors and all that. But in terms of the loyal customers that we talk about in the DTC space, who are like I am. I am so loyal to this brand, I'm not going to shop anywhere else. I'm not going to look anywhere else because they have a great customer experience, or because I love what their brand stands for, or XYZ reason. It's typically the emotional side, which is a little bit harder to rationalize or to quantify when you're looking at the business metrics. But now in marketing, we're starting to get to that point where we can do so, and I think it's fascinating, because I always hear from founders who are coming on here and talking about being a founder that is facing, you know, customer facing for their brand, or being, you know, community being such a big part, and social media, just everyone tying in and, you know, speaking about, okay, I love this product for this reason, because they go the extra mile when it comes to taking care of their customers, or because they're a small business, and I want to support that, because it aligns with my personal wants and my personal, you know, my more of a moral standpoint. And so I think it's fascinating to hear the breakdown of, like, scientifically, what's happening, what part of your brain is activated as a consumer when you're shopping and you see okay, logic from the tank brain or from the neocortex, and then your limbic system being activated through maybe the more emotional side of things. And it's so, so fascinating to me. That's
Laurier Mandin 21:54
a really great point. You know, you talk about kind of the reasons people buy it. When I think of a brand like lush soaps. Nobody goes into a lush soap store and buys and buys and buys again just because they like what the company stands for, what it does. If they, if the So, if the shops didn't smell great, and if they didn't have a range of products that fit into your lifestyle and help you in all these different ways, you just wouldn't go there and buy their stuff. You know, it's, it's great that they've they've got this transcendent reason to buy from them, for from them, but one reason alone is never enough, and founders often, as you're saying, Have these biases. Have a lot of biases. They can't understand why anybody would you know you'd be crazy not to buy their product. But consumers aren't that way. Consumers need a lot of convincing, and then the best way to convince somebody that they need something is on the emotional side, or at least that's the best way to hook people if you want to get more of their attention and get them to explore so even with the long considered purchase, if you don't hook people emotionally, you'll never get them to do the research and to consider the purchase and go through your long B to bundle in order to buy your product, they have to be emotionally hooked at some point in order to invest the rest of themselves and and use that slow, high energy using tank brain. That's another thing I talk about in the book. Is your that that our neocortex is only 2% of our body weight by for most of our bodies, but use a 20% of our energy, so it's very energy intensive, and we're wired to think about these things, to just know that that's one of the reasons why we're kind of lazy thinkers as humans, is that is as a resource, our hard won energy stores can be depleted if we spend too much of our time thinking about unnecessary stuff. So that part of our brain is kind of lazy and we'd rather do what comes naturally and easily. And if you've ever been in a boring class with a boring professor, what's the first thing your brain starts to do? It does what it does very easily. It daydreams. And we spend about almost exactly 50% of our days. A recent study showed it was a really large scale study that found we spent almost exactly 50% I think it's 48 or 49% of our time in a daydreaming state, where we're fantasizing, where we're imagining ourselves doing other things, we're living in our COVID conditions. So that's, to me, that's it's a really important thing for us to recognize as marketers, is that that that is where people want to be. That's where they go easily. So let's help them to get into that state where they can be using their third self. And that's another concept that I introduced in the in the book is, is that there's actually three of us living inside of our minds. I got this idea from Daniel Kahneman, he wrote the book Thinking Fast and Slow, and he's a Nobel Prize winning behavioral economist, and his idea is that we have two selves. We have, our remembering self that lives in the past and the experiencing self that exists in the present and draws from the remembering self in the things it does. But in reading about this research, about. How much time that we spend, half of our time daydreaming and just imagining other things. I realized we have a third self that that lives in the future. This third self is all. Third self is always constructing where we want to be and daydreaming about, you know, if we're a kid and Christmas is coming, we're daydreaming about the toys we want and the incredible, wonderful things that we're going to do with those toys, and the more we do that with any one toy, the more badly we want it. And it's no different with a human making a product decision. If we're looking at buying something that we saw in someone's online store, and it keeps coming to our minds, and we keep on imagining that thing again and again and how it's going to take us into this place that we dream of being this better person that we end up being, then it becomes non negotiable. We're going to go and get that product no matter what it takes. And I tell some stories. I have a personal one I tell in the book about cycle computer that as a young cyclist that I just absolutely had to get, and I had to get it so badly that it was solar powered, and I melted it down on 100 watt light bulb, and I didn't have any money. I had to find the money and get the resources to buy another one of these things so that I could replace this thing that I so desperately needed. So, you know, tying together that that coveted condition with the buyers third self, that they're that part of them that aspires to be in that place is really, really important. And no matter what it is you're selling, if it's something that's worth having it all, then those things, those concepts, are relevant to you, and they are really important to think about when you're looking at how to market to your ideal buyers, those people who are going to succeed and talk about your brand and buy again and again.
Mariah Parsons 26:42
Yeah, I think that's a great, great point. And I love the examples that you're giving along the way of peloton or lush or the bike monitor. And I would love to kind of double tap on that and talk about the some of the real life examples of brands, because I think that really helps contextualize for our audience. And so if you have any other examples of and you talk about thought in the book of you know of those must haves where people are like, I need this. I You can't convince me otherwise. Like, I'm going to buy this. I'm going to find a way to buy this, because it's fascinating. Well, just on the weekend,
Laurier Mandin 27:22
I was listening to a podcast with with Roy and Ryan cedars, and these are the guys that created Yeti. And they were talking in that podcast about how they could have just marketed super durable coolers that you can stand on, which is what Roy's initial idea was with creating the Yeti tundra tundra. But they as they started marketing and getting to know their buyer, they realized they could do a lot better than that, so they created the tagline wildly stronger, keep ice longer, and then they tapped into the fantasy of rugged event, rugged adventurers through brand ambassadors. They they started off by getting a really well known fly fishing guide and getting him equipped. These people, the guides in the industry already had sponsors for their boat, for their rod, for their reel, for everything they used, but nobody had a cooler sponsor, so they realized they could quite easily get and build a community of brand advocates that are well known and respected in the industry, and start to show what you could achieve, what you could experience by having a Yeti cooler. So now they're telling a story and enabling their lifestyle, the lifestyle that their customers dream of living, and how a yeti gives you that these life changing escapes with your ice cold drinks, whether you're on the ocean or in the wild or even on the top of a mountain peak that almost none of their customers would ever try to reach. They're creating this weekend warrior identity for you that you dream of having if you're anywhere near their ideal buyer. And so that's why, instead of buying a cheap $25 styrofoam cooler, you're going to spend hundreds of dollars buying a Yeti cooler, and from there, you know, on your retention journey with Yeti, you're going to buy their mugs and their clothing and gear and all the other things that they have, because they've built this whole world around that for you to achieve that desired future state that you dream of being in. And Lululemon did a similar thing i i was at a conference a couple of years ago, and I got to talk to and meet Chip Wilson, who's the founder, and he talks about he also wrote a really good book, which I have on my shelf here. And I read it. His mother was a seamstress, and he started out making surf wear with flat seams that didn't chafe on surfers wet skin, because it was if there was any any kind of bumps and lumps and ridges in the stitching, it would end up giving you, it would wear through your skin when you're out there in the in the salt water all day and and that rubbing would become painful. And so he took those same techniques and used them to transform yoga wear into comfortable, fashionable, durable workout clothes that really became lifestyle. Signifiers when people would wear Lululemon clothing. It wasn't just necessarily because they wanted the longest wearing most beautiful, most comfortable stuff, but it was because they wanted that lifestyle and they that they dreamt about their coveted condition with Lululemon. So they're buying into this vision of themselves as someone who prioritizes wellness and function as part of a community of high achievers, and that little round Lululemon logo became a badge of belonging to that aspirational group, that tribe of loyal buyers. If you've got time, I've got one more, that's a good one too. It's if you look at what Trey Trager did with barbecue barbecue grills, the their smoker grilled pellet grills. Joe Trager ran a heating company, like with furnaces, and sold wood pellet heaters for homes, but he saw that barbecue owners wanted to have be more than just guys who cook outdoors. It's people who dream of being pit masters that are absolute grilling experts that everybody would come to for the best grilled food and the advice, advice on grilling. And it was very often for the people who use barbecue grills that was the only cooking they would do in their household. But they're very, very proud of what they would do. So he created not just his wood pellet grills, but eventually he built this entire ecosystem around the entire fantasy of being this pit master who could grill anything to perfection. So he'd apps with recipes and video tutorials, a social platform where these pit masters share their smoking success stories. And so Traeger turned the barbecue grill into this gateway for becoming the meat Legend of your neighborhood. And by doing that, they they don't just they're not just a one product brand, but you can buy anything related to grilling and barbecuing from from Traeger. Now,
Mariah Parsons 31:46
those are such great examples. Thank you. Laura, yeah, I love the the three of them, and I think it's like each of them has their own reasons or what right, like they each have their own lifestyle that they're tapping into, but the emotion, the underlying emotion, is still the same of what customers are feeling of and I love what you said around they're buying into the vision of the lifestyle that you want. And so it's like the external signifier. When you have that brand logo on your cooler or on your leggings or on your grill that you're seeing, you know, like, Oh, I'm, I'm like, I'm so knowledgeable in this space that I know what is the best product or what is the best brand to be shopping with. And it's, it's so fascinating, because we as humans, and this goes into the psychological aspects, like, right? We want to feel like we're in the in group, and feel like we have different elements that we can relate to people with. So it's like, automatically, you see someone wearing that that same brand. You know, in some way you're connected, because you either shop with that brand for, for the reason of, let's take Yeti, right? Like, either because you're into this extreme outdoor life, or want to be a weekend warrior, or you're, you know, maybe you're already experienced, or you just are getting started, and there's some, some little thread of attachment between you and a stranger. And I think that's what then builds into online communities and seeing how much people really get into, you know, following their specific brands, or interacting with them, or going out to events in person, because you have that underlying understanding that, okay, this person probably they might differ in every other way of their life, but they have some similarity that has brought them to this brand to shop with, to this event, whatever else x is related to that experience. And I think that's what's so so fascinating is, like that external signifier of like, Hey, I know at least enough about this to say that this is, this is something that I want to wear and be proud of and represent. So it's so cool to think about really
Laurier Mandin 33:55
well put and because everybody has a place that they want to be in the future, very few of us think, no, I'm good where I'm at right now. This is, this is the ultimate me, and I don't, I don't want to dream any bigger than this. We've all got that coveted condition of where we want to be. And with these brands, all the brands, I meant, all three of those brands I talked about, are all premium brands too. They're something you know, people never paid that much for a cooler ever before, and most people never paid that much for any kind of barbecue before, or yoga clothing. It's like, you know, this was like $30 I wouldn't pay more than that. Now you're paying hundreds, and it's because there is more that you value than the functional purpose of those products, right? You can, you could grill something. Everybody is is set up so they can cook meat at home, probably, if they need but we can all convince ourselves and discover that there are better ways. There's there's a higher level of whatever it is your buyer wants to do, and if you can provide that access to that higher level in a way that others other products can't, and even if you could do a better job of providing access to the. Dream. So connecting those dots and saying, if you want to get to this higher level of fitness, then this new system is the way that you're going to get there. And look at these people doing that, and you start to build a community of people who are actually succeeding with it, so you get that social proof,
Mariah Parsons 35:14
yeah, yeah, for sure. So I want to pivot a little bit, because obviously we're talking about, how do you create that emotional connection with your buyers, and how do you make sure that your marketing reflects that? But a big part of obviously the customer experience and the buying experience and the psycho, such psychological aspects behind the consumer experience is buyers remorse, and I want to talk about it, because I think that there's little ways, and I see this on the Malomo side of things, of something like something that boosts confidence after purchasing with someone is seeing a customer experience that is really well intentioned, really well throughout thought out has resources that are already sent to your inbox about how to use the product, or how to you know when it's going to be at your door. And so I want to get your perspective on this of, how do you how do you try and practically reduce that buyer, the potential buyer's remorse for these customers? Yeah,
Laurier Mandin 36:17
and we talked about the tank brain, or analytic, rational side of our of our mind, and that's where buyers, or Morris lives. The tank brain fires up right after we make a purchase and starts second guessing the dog brains impulsive decision, because dog brain usually has a track record of making bad, impulsive choices. And so as we're lying in bed at night, very often the tank brain gets going and we start thinking about the day's decisions, including the purchase we made from your web store today, and wondering if that was really a good decision. And you know, buyer's remorse is one of the things I see in the analytics, that people make a purchase and you think, well, they bought something, they came back. Why are they coming back and going all over the website the day after, the night that after they made this purchase, it's because they're they're looking for reasons to either pacify, mollify the tank brain with that buyer's remorse that's cooking up, or to find that fatal flaw that where the tank brain says, aha, you goofed. Because this product. You know, these guys are not legit, and look at these terrible reviews. It's not going to fit your life. So in order to combat battle or sorry, to combat buyers remorse, I think it's important to have kind of an overall game plan. I've got four basic strategies that I usually recommend for people to right from the start, before you even have customers experiencing buyers, or build out your product, build out your store and build out your processes, so that you're expecting that people are going to question what they've purchased, expect that their spouse is going to question what they're seeing on the credit card bill, and support the product in ways that is clearly not just in the moment, but it is clearly through uh, deeper examination, the right purchase. So first of all, when someone makes a purchase, and most of your listeners probably know this, but you got to immediately validate the buyers emotional response for buying by showing it that it was indeed smart and it's good and it's solid that the product is going to ship and that you're legit. So your order confirmation, making sure it hits the inbox, should remind them of the transformation they're about to experience. Not just hey, your product is coming, expect to get in in a week, or whatever time frame it is, but reinforce in that confirmation email the COVID condition that they're working towards and dreaming of achieving, so that it's like, yeah, yeah, that was a good idea. And yes, I do want to become that person. And second, when, when they start to when they receive the product and they begin your onboarding experience, make that experience unexpectedly delightful. So make sure the unboxing is great. Think about how away luggage includes a surprise little travel guide with every suitcase you buy, or all birds shoes arrive in a box that feels like you're actually opening a gift. So making that onboarding experience really, really pleasant and make it so it's like it's absolutely confirming that that was the right, smart purchase. And then when, when they do start using the product, give your buyer early wins, show them how to achieve something meaningful right away. Like Instant Pot includes a simple recipe guide with easy recipes that guarantee that on your first try, you're going to make easy things, you're going to succeed. They're going to be delicious. You're going to be glad you bought the product, and you're going to be a user for life. So when people make their first perfect meal, now they're confident. They've turned these advocates into these, sorry, these, these people into advocates, instead of the doubters that they would have been by default, if they would have just been uncomfortable using it. They put it on the shelf and. And pretty soon they're deciding that they they're either going to return it or it's just not going to be the product for them. And the last the fourth step, is to build community. So when customers see other people succeeding, like whether it's peloton people raving to their friends on social media about how fit they're becoming and how much they love the what they're doing and and now they're doing this cool new thing, it validates their purchase decision. So when we talked about Yeti, that's why they feature customer photos and stories so prominently. Or if I go to Hello cube, or a brand like that, it's got all the tick tocks of people that are using their product, I can see that they that they're enjoying the lifestyle they've got and pillow cubes case, they're sleeping better and achieving the lifestyle that new customers who are thinking of buying aspire to, and that other people in the community are already enjoying, and then the customers value these things will have a much greater chance of staying customers, getting past those moments when buyers remorse is at its most Powerful, and leveraging that into loyalty instead of the the remorse that they once experienced or would have experienced.
Mariah Parsons 41:05
Yeah, I love that. That's super practical. I honestly don't even know it's super easy for for our listeners to roll out. Um, so I almost have no comments, which is rare on this, on this podcast. Great job with that, Laurier. Um, but I do want to kind of talk about that brand loyalty. Because, assuming you know a brand can roll out the four strategies, the four practical strategies that you just rolled out, which, by the way, should be, even if you're not trying to mitigate against customer remorse, like you haven't seen, that be a big aspect. It 100% should be something that you're rolling out um just because it will pay off, like you said, in loyalty and retention, um so. But I want to talk about, how can you um turn those that like customer fantasy or aspirations into stronger loyalty? Because, like you just said, there are those practical strategies that will help mitigate against, kind of the first time buyers experience with buyers remorse, but really turning all of your customers into really loyal advocates, or engaging with your community is something that is it can be specific to every brand and is fascinating to hear about. You know, how are their, how are their brands out there doing it that are in ways that our listeners could, you know, roll out in their next, you know, quarter or year or something like that.
Laurier Mandin 42:32
And a really important part about loyalty is is starting off with the right audience, that if you, if you're targeting people who have a slim, to none chance of succeeding with the product and trying to convert them into ideal users. You don't have very much chance of succeeding. But if you're in your targeting, you're going after people that you know have the best chance of being successful, loving the product, becoming these, these fans and advocates, then you're in a much, much better position than you would otherwise be. So I think working on your positioning, which is that really short, succinct messaging, that that connects the biggest value your product delivers with those people who are going to appreciate it the most. That is is really super important, not just because good positioning sells, but good positioning also says to the buyer this, I am the right person for this. So it's really worth the time to nail down your positioning in such a way that people know it's either going to be right for them or maybe they're going to continue shopping. Because the worst thing isn't not selling your product, it's selling your product to the wrong people and then having returns and bad reviews. And if you're selling to the wrong people out there, it doesn't matter how good the product is, they're not going to value it. They're going to think this was way too much money and it's not doing exactly what I had hoped for, and they're going to either return the thing or or write a bad review about it. And it's just almost impossible to succeed. So getting that targeting positioning just right is super important. And then, you know those four steps that we talked about, from your confirmation email through your onboarding, through your user experiences, and making sure they're successful, and then all the work that you do from there on in with your your email list, as you're you're guiding people to contribute the communities you create, whether it's a Facebook group or a community that people access through your app. Building those things with those ideal buyers at heart is the most important thing in my mind is, is because now and it's way more fulfilling for the the innovator, the product maker, the brand owners, to be selling to the right people and to be hearing all these great things all the time, then, you know, worked with companies that don't have their product market fit figured out yet, and it that is the opposite. It's super frustrating, because all you're trying to do is is figure out why people aren't loving this thing as much as as as others did, and probably the others that did were. Your ideal buyers, the ones that aren't getting it, that aren't figuring out how to use it properly, that that you know, no matter how many times they come to your your customer support and you walk them through it, they're still not getting it, then those people were probably not ideal buyers in the first place. The problem might be the simplicity of your product. It's a bit hard to learn, or it might be that your instructions are complicated, but it also could be so simple that you're just selling to the wrong people. Yeah,
Mariah Parsons 45:26
yeah, I love that. And it's kind of, it's one of those things where it It almost sounds incorrect when you say, like, don't just try and sell to everyone, right? Like, when someone hears that, or even for this podcast, right, where it's like, This podcast is not meant for everyone. And that is intentional, because we want it to be a higher value podcast or product for people who are in that market, rather than being able to have, you know, rather than being a podcast for everyone. So it kind of is one of those things when you're talking about brand loyalty, the point that you made of you don't want to just sell to people who aren't your ideal customer, because it will, you know, it'll manifest in returns and unhappy reviews and experiences that will damage, potentially, you know, or dissuade ideal customers from purchasing with you if they see, you know, bad experiences. And so I think it's, it's it's a great call out that you want to be first step of making sure that you are targeting and talking to the right consumer. And I don't think we've, we've heard that here on this podcast before, so it's a great point.
Laurier Mandin 46:33
Yeah, well, audience, and I think, you know, if I were to give a copy of I need that to my Aunt Martha, if I hadn't had Martha, she probably think it's the most boring, most terrible book she's ever read, because she hasn't made it or sold a product in her life, and the concepts in it would, you know, she might be proud of me for writing this book, but she's not going to love reading it. But I think, on the other hand, if it, if one of our listeners here is reading the book, and the kind of comments that I, that I've had and feedback. You know, I've been very happy the people that have told me how useful it's been, and it's because they're appreciating that we've got these 114 quick wins in, you know, at the end of every chapter, there's a series of these things that are designed with them in mind. So, you know, I really hope people enjoy it. And Part, Part of the reason why I find the people who I've heard are liking the book that they are is because I really gave a lot of thought to who they would be when I was writing it, and what they would have to get from it. If I, if I didn't have those those quick wins at the end of every chapter, I think it would be like so many other books that we read, that you just read it, you put it on your shelf, and if you're lucky, you might remember a few takeaways from it down the road. But I really recommend to people, and even if you've listened to the audiobook version, which, which, I know you have as well, I have a downloadable file that's printable with all the quick wins, so that people can go back to them and work through them sequentially. You don't have to do them all. But I'll bet you that if you read the book or listen to the audio book and use the resources in there, that you will advance in your journey, and you're going to learn things and achieve things that will make you better at creating and marketing products people really are compelled to buy as the the subtitle says,
Mariah Parsons 48:22
yes, yeah, I love it. Um, I obviously we couldn't. We couldn't even dare to dive into everything you talked about in the book. So I hope our listeners will go and either listen or read your book, because it is, it truly is, you know, as someone who sits in the seat and has for three years of interacting with people who started brands or trying to, it takes a lot and to be able to have a book that is practical, like you said, or the printable file, even like working it's like a workshop, right? And you have to, you now have to know as yourself, like, I'm going to dedicate time to actually do this and not just read over and be like, That's a great idea, but then put it on the shelf and don't do it. You have to dedicate the practical time to the exercise. But as I was reading through them, I was like, I fully, fully, fully see how this has helped and can help and is helping many founders out there. So I appreciate you taking the time today to tell us, even just to scratch the surface about what you talked about in the book and spend some time with your with us here today. So thank you, Laurie, it's been great to have you. It's
Laurier Mandin 49:25
been my pleasure. And if I have one little action for people to do is go to L manden.com and sign up for my free daily email newsletter. And I find that I really enjoy creating that and I've become a daily email writer, but that's, as I said, with the purpose for the book is, the purpose of those emails is to help my not just my readers of the book. If you don't buy the book at all, that's just fine, but sign up for my free emails, because the goal of them is to move you forward every single day and to give you value and to help you to. Keep on learning on your journey. So I make these emails bite sized. I make them so so that people can use them. And I've had really good feedback on that as well, that people are are reading them in my I've got an open rate about 82% right now. So to me, that's that's one of the best signs that people are not just opening and reading them once, but they tend to continue to and I'm also very open. I'd love to have people reply to the emails and give me feedback and give me ideas for other emails, or tell me what you like or what you don't like about them. So please join that list if you do no other thing, and I'd love to have you on.
Mariah Parsons 50:33
Okay, wonderful. I will put that in the show notes as well, and I know I'll be joining. So this is great. Thank you again. You Hello everyone. It's Mariah again. I am just popping in to say thank you for listening to today's episode, and I am so so so grateful that I have been able to be on this journey for the past couple of years with this podcast, it's been phenomenal to grow and see our community of 1000s of listeners. See what you guys are up to, what you're learning, what you want to hear about next. So if you haven't already, please like and subscribe to the show so we can continue doing this. Leave us a review. Let us know your thoughts. Follow us on our new social media channels and check out our newly launched website. If you or someone you know would be a great guest for the show, please do not be shy. Fill up the form that we have on there, because those are some of my favorite interviews, and I will make sure that our new website is linked in the bio. It's retention Chronicles podcast.com and as always, let's give a warm shout out to our day one sponsor, Malomo. As you already know, Malomo is an order tracking platform that enables Shopify brands to take control of their transactional email and SMS through branded order tracking. What does that mean? That means you ditch those boring carrier tracking pages, the all white pages that have nothing on them but a tracking number and an update on the date of your estimated arrival and swap those with pages that actually match your brand and can help you convert on some of your goals. Customers like you and I obsessively check that tracking page when we're looking for our order at our doorstep an average of 4.6 times. If you can believe it, yes, customers are going to that page 4.6 times. So don't waste out on all that customer engagement and instead send them to a page that converts in the way that you want it to. I am talking dealing with shipping issues, having cross sells and upsells, having your social media on there, your loyalty programs, anything, anything that you can imagine. So if you want to learn more about how to do that, go to go malomo.com that's G O M, a, l, o m, o.com and if you didn't get that, don't worry. That website link for our sponsor, as well as our podcast website are linked in our episode description. So with that, I will sign off and see you all next time you.
